Forum Camoin del Tarot

[Stephen]

Greetings,
I am a new member. I am glad that I can hope to learn the Tarot of Marseilles tradition from people I am pretty sure actually know it. I am not saying that at this site/forum is the only way, but it does seem to have actual knowledge of how the Marseilles deck can actually be used. The other thing I liked is the way I was able to see the exact time I registered for this forum. Taking that, as well as the date and place, I was able to download a transit chart(astrology) for the event of joining here. It was not a pretty sight. So, I think that I will, largely, just read and learn, rather than blabbing what I think I know. lol

Best Regards,
Stephen

[iñigo]

Dear Stephen:

Your are welcome to join us in this forum. This forum is possible thanks to the volunteer work of people who love the tarot. We use the Phillippe Camoin method. It is a rigorous method based on a comparative study of traditions, and the most important thing, an probably the reason to consider this way as a unique way, in this system of reading, the meaning of the cards is created by the interaction among those cards.

On one hand that means this is a system anybody can learn, avoiding problems related to clarvoyants or fortuneteller who receive "the knowlegde" without merit, effort, or just because "they are linked to the heaven". No, we consider the tarot as a way of knowledge for all of us. The meaning is not something arbitrary.

On the other hand that means our biggest work is to adapt the meaning of the cards to the present we live, searching into the cards the "signs of the new era". This is The era of The communication. This forum is a good example of that New Era. We are linked as never before in the history.

Best regards and good luck!

[Paul]

Hi Stephen:

Welcome aboard, and a special welcome to our sleepy, little English forum.

Please look at the information here http://en.camoin.com/tarot/-Camoin-Meth ... ding-.html
in order to understand some basics of the method. M. Camoin's book is coming out soon, which will elucidate much.

I personally tend to add layers of meaning into the cards (from medieval astrology and medieval art symbolism) which are not really an integral part of the Camoin Method, if at all. Yet, they do IMHO enrich the interpretative possibilities, and they often elucidate why a particular Arcana has received traditional meanings, as such. For example, you will find that Le Bateleur is often referencing "employment" in the Camoin Method; medieval symbolism informs us that Le Batleur is synonymous with Mercury. But, you will also find that the Tarot is cross-cultural.

Fundamentally, I agree with Iñigo: The method is decidedly about Laws, Gazes and the interactions of the individual cards. It is a Systemic method, for sure. So, only analyzing each card as a separate, holistic entity is not quite crossing the finish line, so to speak.

It helps, as you can see, to try a reading for yourself, once you have grasped the layout laws, and then post for group analysis.

Happy Trails!

Paul
(P.S. I am not a formal student of M. Camoin; but, I am informed of the method.)

[Stephen]

Hi Indigo and Paul,
I haven't quite learned how to use this forum properly, so I can't right click onto where it says "post reply", so I can open up a new tab and see your replies, as I reply. So, I am forced to use my memory, or lack of it. I also agree with Indigo, about the Tarot of Marseilles, and Tarots of that era. In my own words, they seem to have more rules and meanings, and may apply to the left side of the brain, but does not ignore the intuitive right side. I have noticed that some tarot readers here in the USA that try out the Marseille deck, and use it intuitively like they might the Ryder-Waite deck tend to draw a blank. So, they assume that it is not for them. It shows me that one might not read the Marseille deck like one may read a Ryder-Waite type deck. Also, some Marseille cards, within the deck itself, don't seem to be reversable. I think cards that are reversable, and are for a particular reading, may be similar to a retrograde planet in astrology. The energies are reversed. Thank you, Paul, for the link. I will read it.

Best Regards,
Stephen

[Paul]

Oops -- double post.

[Paul]

Hi Indigo and Paul,
I have noticed that some tarot readers here in the USA that try out the Marseille deck, and use it intuitively like they might the Ryder-Waite deck tend to draw a blank. So, they assume that it is not for them. It shows me that one might not read the Marseille deck like one may read a Ryder-Waite type deck.

Indeed. It's not really the fault of the USA tarot readers, I believe. I am wording this strongly, but Western Tarot readers were duped into the Rider-Waite and Crowley decks being the prototypical Tarots. Sure, we knew that this Marseilles Tarot existed, but the Marseilles Deck seemed like a primitive and peurile instrument, much like flint and tinder is to a lighter now. When I began Tarot reading many moons ago in my teens (I'm now 39), I wanted only the Tarot de Marseille. Well, they didn't exist in the USA then, and there was no internet per se. So, I drew my own! I took the images out of one of Kaplan's books, I think.

The meanings and particular cartoon scenes of the Rider-Waite are derived from the Golden Dawn Society's understanding of the Tarot, especially the Minors. So, in fact, some TdM users may use Rider-Waite images in their imagination in order to inform their TdM card meanings, especially with the Minors, which in the TdM, would seem to the Rider-Waite reader to have a paucity of imagery.

The apparent primitiveness of the artwork on the TdM actually makes it more readable! Symbols are more uniform and repeat in similitude and variation; these help the reader readily see patterns that would not be possible on Rider-Waite clones, such as those published by Lo Scarabeo, for example.

Also, some Marseille cards, within the deck itself, don't seem to be reversable. I think cards that are reversable, and are for a particular reading, may be similar to a retrograde planet in astrology. The energies are reversed.

Well, the Camoin/Jodo deck (and most) have a publishing symbol on each card that would suggest a reversal, if necessary. Reversed cards in the Camoin Method tend to suggest "problem with..." The energy is blocked or obfuscated in some way. Often, the solution card above the problem-card may provide more clarification as to the problem.

Paul

[Paul]

Sorry, double post.

[Stephen]

>Well, the Camoin/Jodo deck (and most) have a publishing symbol on each card that would suggest a reversal, if necessary. Reversed cards in the Camoin Method tend to suggest "problem with..." The energy is blocked or obfuscated in some way. Often, the solution card above the problem-card may provide more clarification as to the problem.

Yes, but many of the coin/pentacle suits in the Minor Arcana don't seem to have a reversable. It looks the same unless one turns it sideways.

Best,
Stephen

[Stephen]

Excuse me, I meant "many of the coin/pentacle CARDS in the Minor Arcana..."

[Phine]

Welcome to the forum, Stephen ,


I began reading the TdM about 9 months ago - as Paul pointed out, most western tarot readers get in touch with the RWS or Thoth and so did I...

Stephen
Yes, but many of the coin/pentacle cards in the Minor Arcana don't seem to have a reversable.

If you take a very close look at the floral details you will be able to make out the up- and downsides of the cards. Very often it is just the bloom that has a slightly different form or coloring or the leaves show different shades...
These little differences won´t be remarked on first sight - but to be honest: I look at the publishing sign when I use the Jodo/Camoin. Other decks have numbered the pips as well, so here you will be able to see the position whether it is reversed or not.
A favorite deck of mine is the Fournier Tarot Español...


Have fun

[Stephen]

Hi Phine,
Thank you for your welcome.

>If you take a very close look at the floral details you will be able to make out the up- and downsides of the cards. Very often it is just the bloom that has a slightly different form or coloring or the leaves show different shades...

Yes, I look for those. In some of the pips there doesn't seem to be any differences, and others there does seem to be subtle differences. In fact, some of these cards look like they were supposed to look the same whether you turn them one way or another. When was the earliest references to reversed cards in publication, and in readings? Does anyone know?

[Paul]

When was the earliest references to reversed cards in publication, and in readings? Does anyone know?

Hi Stephen:

Can't say I can answer that question, but in the Camoin Method, reversed cards are indeed used. In the Jodo/Camoin deck, the publishing symbol is on the far edge of the card, which helps to easily identify reversals on some of the batons and deniers. Also, I would suggest that in the Camoin Method, the Major Arcana play the major role.

As you will discover when reading the basic "how to's" of the layout method, a reversed card indicates a "problem with" the energies of that card. Then, one places a deliberately-uprighted card above the problem card (and follows any gazes therein) to indicate what the solution would be...sort of, advised response. It's also important to understand that "solution cards" can be compound; that is to say, a card can look at another card and both can be the solution. Example: Le Bateleur is the solution for La Justice reversed. But, Le Bateleur gazes to the left. Thus, we would place a card to the left of Le Bateleur to see what he is gazing at. If the card below that gaze-card is upright, then one can draw the card "as-is" (upright or reversed as it randomly is drawn). If the card below that gaze-card is reversed, then it too requires an upright solution-card.

Example:

..................



So, in this example, Le Bateleur solves La Justice reversed. But, Le Bateleur gazes at something...we draw randomly VI. Because Le Pape was upright, it did not need a solution card, so the card drawn for Le Bateleur does not need to be deliberately-uprighted. Nonetheless, it was still randomly drawn upright.

The solution for La Justice might be that the querent has to start over (I) with negotiations and networking (VI). But, the context of the question is paramount. Once we know the context of the question, these ancient symbols of the Tarot are then analogized optically to modern phenomena.

Thanks for letting me ramble.

Paul

[Stephen]

Hi Paul,

>Can't say I can answer that question, but in the Camoin Method, reversed cards are indeed used.

I don't dispute that cards should be used reversed if they come up that way, assuming that it is not a solution card. It is just that some of these cards, in the Minor Arcana look the same however they are turned. Some do have subtlties, others, I simply don't see them. The Ace of Coins is another example. It looks the same either way, and I don't see even a subtle difference in the plant depictions surrounding the coin. I don't suppose a proper solution would be to assume that some cards can have a reversable and others not? Maybe certain cards weren't meant to be reversed? Your example was very informative, even if it wasn't what I was asking about. lol

[Paul]

On most TdM's, there is a publishing symbol on the front of the card, on the edge. These publishing symbols are consistent; thus, once you determine where the publisher intends to place the publishing symbol on an upright card, you can easily distinguish reversals from uprights by glancing at the symbol. I have attached the Camoin/Jodo and Grimaud cards that show this.


The Kris Hadar's TdM in fact uses a subtle system of petals on the Deniers and blue and red sword handles on the É'pées and Bâtons to distinguish uprights and reversals; there is no publishing symbol on this subtle deck. He has published careful rules to tell upright from reversed. I imagine one would get really good with practice, but at first, I found myself counting petals and remembering which side red or blue should be on. Kris Hadar's rules don't work with other TdM's because the petal/blue & red handles rules are idiosyncratic too his deck.

The Flornoy Noblet TdM recently published is maddeningly obscure on this issue. One would have to take a new deck, I would imagine, and somehow mark it (which would be off-putting to many, I agree). Or, one would have to let go of reversals with these Minors or entirely.

Happy TdMing !

Paul

[Phine]

Hi, guys ,


execuse me - I know there are so tiny little differences. Normally you would ignore them... you have to look very sharp.
I´m not sure, I would remember which side is which... but here there´s the Ace of Coins:



Take a close look to the lines in the blooms (I highlightened them in pink ) - and the green bows appear slightly different in its shade... And the blue leaves: Above they have three stolons (? it´s tricuspid...), at the bottom just two... There are more differences to discover - you will find them yourselves, I´m sure (in the orange parts the lines for example).
Writing all this I remark: There are more and longer lines in the upper ornaments... It looks "richer" in details somehow.


Ok, these were my 0.002€,


best wishes,