Forum Camoin del Tarot

[Paul]

Hello all.

Here’s a reading I did for an associate of mine. The querent was one member of a gay couple, who provided permission to post. As background, the querent reports that the relationship has been severely strained, especially with communication. After “massaging” his question into workable format, he asked, “Are we best to 'split' as amicably as possible or try and make the relationship work?”
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Here’s my interpretation, but others’ ideas are very much appreciated.

I notice straight away that two men are pictured (Le Chariot and L’Empereur); one is reversed, they are not looking at each other, this is an appropriate optical analogy of the problems. Le Chariot looks to the past at L’Imperatrice, concerned about the past communication difficulties and a lack of creative life to the relationship; he described it as a lethargy in the household, but especially in the field of communication. The solution to those difficulties was, of course, to try and communicate (Le Soleil). L’Imperatrice looks at Le Pendu; he confirmed that the relationship has felt like something he has had to tolerate, sacrifice for, but without deep satisfaction or a feeling of it being an investment for the future. Thus, he has tolerated (Le Pendu) the problems (L'Imperatrice, reversed).

I also noticed how Le Soleil is juxtaposed with La Lune in the evolving solution row. The (past) solution to the reversed L’Empereur was La Lune (as mentioned, in comparison with the prior solution of Le Soleil). I speculated that the optical analogy here was moving from the two-children-touching to two-dogs-barking. Thus, the communication recently was becoming more primitive, less careful and constructive as pictured in Le Soleil, more emotional and visceral; the communication moved from Solar to Lunar, with all the implications of that. But because La Lune is in the upright as a solution, this more visceral communication style was at least a solution-attempt at getting the message across—this optical analogy was confirmed by the man who said that the communication was more argumentative, but at least more emotionally honest. He also confirmed my statement that La Lune could mean a “removal” (especially when La Maison Dieu was present—this was evidently an idea he was entertaining.

At present, we have La Maison Dieu. Temperance is looking at La Maison Dieu in her future position. This is where I am somewhat unsure of whether she signals reconciliation or amicable division of the household. She appears to be looking at the household resources of La Maison Dieu and dividing up the resources, or perhaps she stands alone, and La Maison Dieu signals the (present) feeling in the relationship of the desperate need to disrupt the lethargy. So, to summarize my condundrum, is this an optical analogy of splitting amicably? Or, does Temperance signify reconciliation? He confirmed that there would be a household and money to divide.

I pulled a Minor Arcana to clarify Temperance—10 E’pées: The ending of a cycle and beginning of another, but in the spheres of intellect and problem-solving. The idea of an amicable split seemed to resonate with him, but he said he was also open to trying to make it work. His ambivalence annoyed him he said, because it was so much like Le Pendu of the past.

I promised to post the reading and harvest everyone’s ideas.

I should also say that I hate giving advice of this magnitude (or really any for that matter) and rather like to use the Tarot cards for the querent to self-reflect on his situation. So, rather than me fortune-telling or future-telling a person what to do, we look at the possibilities. In this spirit, the "true" meaning of Temperance may be in the eyes of the querent.

[iñigo]

Hi Paul:

1º

I notice straight away that two men are pictured (Le Chariot and L’Empereur); one is reversed, they are not looking at each other, this is an appropriate optical analogy of the problems. Le Chariot looks to the past at L’Imperatrice, concerned about the past communication difficulties and a lack of creative life to the relationship; he described it as a lethargy in the household,

Why do you consider we have the two men in the "original line" (I mean present past future line)?

Do you think the gender is something static represented always by a static character? If the meanings of the cards are not static why the thing that they represent must be static?

Why the man who asked you couldn´t be represented by Limperatrice for instance?

According to your reading, it is like..just one man considers there is a problem here (just one man is corrected, the chariot isn´t)

Why he didn´t ask you: Do I have to split up?

I mean, the subject is WE. Then the subject should be XVI. And this card seems being without problems. Moreover It is receiving a positive effect from XIIII

In this case the card of the Le chariot is the "drive" between III and IV. Is One of them "more intelectual" than the other one? why do they live together? here there is a interesting point!

2º I consider they can improve the situation. But I am not sure If they really want to....

Before clarifying what the XIIII means, you have to clarifying what card your friend is represented by.

Paul, what do you think about?

let me know!!
regards

[Paul]

Hello iñigo --

Thanks for the rich input! I take all of your points as well-made. I could perhaps address some of your points.

Why do you consider we have the two men in the "original line" (I mean present past future line)?

Do you think the gender is something static represented always by a static character? If the meanings of the cards are not static why the thing that they represent must be static?

Why the man who asked you couldn´t be represented by Limperatrice for instance?

In principle, no, I would see gender as more androgynous. Admittedly, I have tended to find the Tarot picture people by genitalia, as often a most salient feature of recognition of the person. Let me phrase that differently! What I mean to say is gender is often (but not always) a most salient feature of a personage. But, I am more interested in synchroncities that are meaningful to the situation. I did not previously say, but it is true, that the man sat with me and he himself perceived he and his partner in Le Chariot and L'Empereur: One is somewhat older than the other.

According to your reading, it is like..just one man considers there is a problem here (just one man is corrected, the chariot isn´t)

Indeed. He said that his partner doesn't seem to understand his dissatisfaction and minimizes it. But, interestingly, he saw himself as the Le Chariot and L'Empereur as the partner, due to physical features and temperament. I took Le Chariot looking at L'Imperatrice (reversed) as Le Chariot's "thought bubble".

Why he didn´t ask you: Do I have to split up?

I mean, the subject is WE. Then the subject should be XVI. And this card seems being without problems. Moreover It is receiving a positive effect from XIIII

Yes, a curious pronoun choice. Thanks for noticing this. I too was intrigued by the fact that La Maison Dieu was upright.

In this case the card of the Le chariot is the "drive" between III and IV. Is One of them "more intelectual" than the other one? why do they live together? here there is a interesting point!

Yes. This is possible, of course. Le Chariot lept out at him as his card. They live together and have for quite some years I understand. But, can you continue with your theme here?

Before clarifying what the XIIII means, you have to clarifying what card your friend is represented by.

Yes. That seemed clarified at the time of the reading, but I failed to mention that.

I consider they can improve the situation. But I am not sure If they really want to....

Yes, he mentioned his ambivalence as maddening. He needed internal exploration.

Any more thoughts?

I don't want them to split, so I bring that bias to the reading. He seemed more intrigued by the urns being "amicable split".

[iñigo]

Hi Paul:

Thanks for sharing this reading!

After the first reading of your interpretation, there was something, in my opinion, blurry: the subject. I tried to identify the boy who asked you for the reading.

Yes. This is possible, of course. Le Chariot lept out at him as his card. They live together and have for quite some years I understand. But, can you continue with your theme here?

Le pendu: right position. Number III is looking at Le Pendu in its right position: Number III is dumb!
AS Le pendu is right: no problem on that, It´s his nature, the problem is driving by number IIII thru Le chariot. Number IIII is creating/revealing the problem.

That´s whay I consider there is a difference on "the intelectual level" (I guess, and sorry for the expression!). I mean they are differents. (BUT IN ANY CASE THEY COULD BE REPRESENTED BY THE PERFECT MATERIAL COUPLE!)

Do I have to share my knowledge with this guy more time? Do I want to? Am I hurting/offending him with my rhetoric?

Paul, my point is...why the XVI is correct and the XIIII too?

What do you think?

regards!!

[Paul]

Here is a lesson in how the Tarot can be catalytic.

My associate called me. The card of La Maison Dieu haunted him. When I do readings, I like to record them with little "sticky labels" of the cards on paper, so the person can continue to meditate on the images. He said he had much to say to his partner, secret feelings or feelings kept dormant. The image of La Maison Dieu catalyzed him to make the revelations of his thoughts and feelings. He provided a calm "ultimatum" to his partner of how the relationship must change or how it must otherwise end. He said he insisted to his partner how both need to take responsibility for change, not just one. He tells me the conversation was very calm, respectful, but intensely honest.

I must say Temperance seems to signal reconciliation or at least the alchemical process of the couple mutually taking responsibility.

[Lehann]

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[Paul]

Hello Paul, et happy to see you here, submiting a reading
I'll try to be... hum... "clear" as possible, although i'm not good in english...

Your English is wonderful.

Here is my opinion concerning this reading. I think this couple should not break.

Yes, I felt they should not break up, either. I felt like the uniting force of Temperance and the fact of La Maison Dieu being upright was simply too compelling to mean "split". I think that the drawing of the Minor Arcana 10 d'Epees signified solving a problem that had lingered, a turning of the wheel, an application of continued thought to get things moving, as well as a taking responsibility for CHANGE. Besides, "split" could have been illustrated by any number of cards reversed, with the appropriate solution. At the time of the reading, I suspect that the Querent's emotional pull was towards confirming a break up, but he was ambivalent. Such is a strong case for being judicious with reading for friends.

If we analyse the problem of this couple in a deep way, it is because both of them are sharing different opinions. The one is blocked by his past, by his fears; while the other one thinks only of his dreams, while in what it expects from life and from his couple.

I can see the "past" of the one in the couple; where do you find the "dreaminess" of the second?

It is necessary to them to stop living in the imagination, and to try to consider their couple in a permanent present, in constant evolution, but without purpose or barriers.

Yes. He said that both had unstated feelings and opinions, fears and hopes, but relatively secret.

Temperance doesn't advice to break up their couple. It recommends to restore peace, to take time to discuss, to share opinions, to speak, to exchange, to announce. Temperance does not separate ! It blends and mixes the comparing, the opposites. It unites, regroups and blends. But never it divides.

I agree. You know, there are cards for everything under the Sun in the Tarot, and Temperance simply doesn't resonate with me as a card of division. I think Jodo's meaning of La Maison Dieu as a revelation resonated with the querent.

As I stated earlier, La Maison Dieu resonated with the Querent as a catalytic card of change. We can see this "vibe" when we juxtapose the two: The verve and revelation and shock of La Maison Dieu (yet still upright) are compared and contrasted with the calm, resonance, and peacemaking of Temperance. Thus, the meanings of the cards are made self-evident by relationship, and this is of course one beautiful feature of the Camoin Method.

Thanks all for your continued analysis.

[Paul]

Le pendu: right position. Number III is looking at Le Pendu in its right position: Number III is dumb!
AS Le pendu is right: no problem on that, It´s his nature, the problem is driving by number IIII thru Le chariot. Number IIII is creating/revealing the problem.

That´s whay I consider there is a difference on "the intelectual level" (I guess, and sorry for the expression!). I mean they are differents. (BUT IN ANY CASE THEY COULD BE REPRESENTED BY THE PERFECT MATERIAL COUPLE!)

Can you please elaborate, iñigo?
You seem to be saying that one of the partners is not "the brightest bulb in the Christmas tree," as we say in American English?

I don't think that is true, from my knowledge of them. However, I think when it comes to "emotional intelligence," such is very true. One is more gifted with emotional intelligence, which is a pop cultural word here in the US, but I'm not sure if it took other places. It is essentially the skill to identify, articulate, process, sense in others, and share emotional experiences. The other partner is known to be very mildly Autistic, very mildly. So, Le Chariot could be tolerating the reversed L'Imperatrice. The solution to that has required communication (Le Soleil) and kindness.

Paul

[Shaolin]

Hi paul
Great to have a reading in this part of forum!
I do only hypothesis, be care with my reading because i'm just a newbie!!
Sun and moon are the two aspects of the couple i think, upper and lower.
We're beast (moon) and human (sun).
is one of them have a problem to create money (unemployment) and the other one think too much about material things and his material project (or his company)?
I feel that the left one who doesn't have ideas (III) for the material side of life need communication in the couple, help of the right one (sun).
He need help to find success, desire of conquer and travel (chariot).
The other need more sensuality by the moon, to enjoy material part of life, maybe he can have help by the left one.
Are they in separate houses?
Maybe right one don't want to live in the same house.
Is one have a flat and other have a house?
I think maybe that plan a trip together (chariot) could be good for the couple, to discover together unexplored territories...
Or maybe plan to go on in the same direction in life (chariot), or to plan to live in the same house.
They can share together, and maybe each one are the solution for the other one, one in construction, the other in sensuality.

[iñigo]

Hi All!

Can you please elaborate, iñigo?
You seem to be saying that one of the partners is not "the brightest bulb in the Christmas tree," as we say in American English?

I don't think that is true, from my knowledge of them. However, I think when it comes to "emotional intelligence," such is very true. One is more gifted with emotional intelligence, which is a pop cultural word here in the US, but I'm not sure if it took other places. It is essentially the skill to identify, articulate, process, sense in others, and share emotional experiences. The other partner is known to be very mildly Autistic, very mildly. So, Le Chariot could be tolerating the reversed L'Imperatrice. The solution to that has required communication (Le Soleil) and kindness.

Yes and yes!!!, you correct my words perfectly. I forgot XVIIII over IIII
Honestly I realized quickly about a sort of contradiction on my hypothesis because in fact, they are at the same level (perfect couple III- IIII). Problably a different level of "knowlegde" should be represented by, for instance, III and V.
Having a huge moon over the IIII, the problem must have been emotional. (but remember that even knowing that...one of them is still correctly represented by Le empereur..uhm..).

Thus, the communication recently was becoming more primitive, less careful and constructive as pictured in Le Soleil, more emotional and visceral; the communication moved from Solar to Lunar, with all the implications of that. But because La Lune is in the upright as a solution, this more visceral communication style was at least a solution-attempt at getting the message across—this optical analogy was confirmed by the man who said that the communication was more argumentative, but at least more emotionally honest.

But What about the 10 of epee? Ideas, intelectual life.....more temperance on this point? Must the empereur be more receptive?

I pulled a Minor Arcana to clarify Temperance—10 E’pées: The ending of a cycle and beginning of another, but in the spheres of intellect and problem-solving. The idea of an amicable split seemed to resonate with him, but he said he was also open to trying to make it work. His ambivalence annoyed him he said, because it was so much like Le Pendu of the past.

If he is Lempereur, he has the last word...
hope this is useful

[Paul]

Hello all --

My associate contacted me. Tarot readings can be catalytic (I think I said this somewhere else here at the forum).
When I provide readings, I like to provide a sheet with the card-pictures stuck on the page, in the format they appeared in the reading.
The querent can take this home and meditate, cogitate, or otherwise agitate.

He called me and said that he had meditated on the pictures: Temperance to him was reconciliation and communication; the prior hidden hands of Le Pendu were open and pouring in Temperance-- both agreed to talk more spontaneously, to check in in-the-moment so to speak when there was tension. He said 99% of the problems were communication misunderstandings or presuppositions. La Maison Dieu was an ultimatum he gave his partner.
They have enrolled in couples counseling 2x/month to help.

Thanks to everyone for your rich responses.