Hieroglyphic Language & the Tarot

Hieroglyphic Language & the Tarot

Messagepar Paul » Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:16 am

I couldn’t sleep tonight, so, I thought I’d post. It actually pertains to the Tarot de Marseille and the Camoin Method, if one stays with me. 8) In her book The Passion of Isis and Osiris, Jean Houston discusses Hieroglyphic Thinking and Writing, elaborating on how the Egyptian hieroglyphs were unlike our modern abstract writing system. In our abstract writing system, a letter or word is generally a digital sequence of imposed form and sound to transmit a memorized meaning. The letters and words derive meaning through memorization and redundancy of usage. In contrast, the hieroglyphs were analogical, figurative, phonetic, and symbolic all at once, and so a word connoted multiple layers of meaning. In addition to particular glyphs, the true beauty and richness of the language occurs when glyphs are used in combination. I raise this point, because the Tarot de Marseille is really to me hieroglyphic, and it is perhaps today’s hieroglyph system. Additionally, the Camoin Method appears to tap into the hieroglyphic nature of the Tarot. We only have to discern the meaning of the glyphs for our modern world and within the context of any question.

For example, the Egyptian word for soul is Ba (soul or spiritual personality) and is depicted as a bird or hawk with a human head, Image , obviously analogous to a bird that resides in both the sky and the earth, essentially taking flight, or resting (in the body), moving freely in the underworld and "overworld". But, Ba was also used in words to connote the unique character of objects, or in its plural form the reputation or powers of a God, its Bau. It can connote the appearance or nature of something, its essence. So, we have one glyph, but multiple nuances.

Even changing the sequence of glyphs presented new ideas: Ais (Image) is the Brain as a physical mass of tissue. Then, sequenced in reverse, Sia or wisdom or the perceptive mind (Image) connotes the wing of spirit inspiring the human eye. While the glyphs certainly denote the phonetic sounds--that is to say, each glyph can signify a sound that combines to form the word, A-i-s or S-i-a-- they also pictorially connote the meaning, as we have an eye, human, falcon, and a wing, all analogous to the Mind, Consciousness, etc. Moreover, the different nuances of Brain or Wisdom are conveyed in the different sequencing in each word.

The Tarot de Marseille, in particular, lends itself well to this hieroglyphic system of interpretation because of its apparent childish simplicity and primitiveness. I say apparent, referring again to Egyptian hieroglyphic language, because for some years some Egyptologists condescendingly understood the Egyptian writing system as a lovely, but puerile, graphical system, as if Egyptians went around communicating a kind of Ooga Booga thought structure on their walls: "Me Tarzan, You Jane" in graffiti. Yet, R.S. Schwaller de Lubicz discovered that there were tremendous dimensions to the hieroglyph writing (and Egyptian thinking in general). Likewise, it seems that the Tarot de Marseille, in some corners of the Tarot market (rather large corners, in fact) has been falsely considered to be an old, primitive, and dusty Tarot now subsumed by the apparently more sophisticated Tarots of modernity.

Almost at our final destination now... 8)

Certainly, Egyptian hieroglyphs have been translated (or perhaps transliterated is better) by some scholars in a digital and literalist fashion, rendering a scholarly, but sterile language that loses its nuances. So too, Tarot reading has largely been presented to the public, as a translated (or transliterated) in this denotative fashion, with each card signifying a particular keyword meaning, placed into a keyword position, and then a literalistic answer results. But, this way of reading the Tarot loses the connotation, the poetry, the pun, and the depth of meaning that is conveyed in the analogies, especially those associations that result from the nuanced relationships that occur with cards in proximity or relationship to one another, or in how the cards sequence in a particular ordering. I think the Camoin Method capitalizes on this hieroglyphic system inherent in the Tarot (de Marseille), because this language is achieved through regards, pairs, contrasts, similitude, optical analogies, and so forth. As well, the narrative is allowed to unfold through mechanics inherent to the structure of the Tarot itself.

This could be an entire thesis for a paper. But, I thought I’d share the flotsam and jetsam of my mind. :roll: Now back to bed to dream of sky goddesses and myrrh and the Nile.
Image
Avatar de l’utilisateur
Paul
 
Messages: 262
Inscription: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:12 pm
Localisation: États-Unis d'Amérique
FORUM TAROT CAMOIN

Re: Hieroglyphic Language & the Tarot

Messagepar iñigo » Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:12 pm

Dear Paul:

Now I feel you are looking for The Source of the Nile. I would like to point out a couple of ideas.

I don´t know If before We said that the modernity dream tryed to control uncertainty and ambiguity. Now We are waking up from this nightmare. We couldn´t control those things and the stuff we created to control them is destroying the planet. Uncertainty and ambiguity lie on that thing called risk society, complex society, and finally, complex identity. This is a logic of control, this is a logic of living a dream made by someone powerfull.

What I mean is that it was "normal" that the human being tried to control the meaning of what they used to say. What I mean is to refute the hieroglyphics is part of this "conspiracy" to control everything.

Controling the sound, the main channel of the comunication, and reflecting the sound trhu the same symbols always, the power ensured its capacity of control. Everything must has said in the same way, to express the same idea. For example, the english is base on hard rules of producing sound, intonation, to be understood, that means the word written the letters, are empty until the moment in which they are expressed.

Back to the tarot:

Is the tarot working as a hieroglyphic language?

Yes, that means the meaning is not something static, but dynamic. This dynamism is based on rules of interaction. Interaction is linked to how is the perception of reality in each moment, and how the people organizes their reality in a given moment. The tarot is a narrative knowledge of a visual metaphor sequence.

In short the tarot, as a relic, kept this hieroglyphic language.

Nowadays You could find some of this aspects in the generative grammar of Noam Chomsky in the tarot, for example. The generative grammar or transformational grammar consists, basically, in genetic rules to produce the language and in a deep structure and superficial structure. Deep structure is linked to meaning, but deep structure is plenty of uncertainty.

So it is like our sentences are plenty of magic, and they are transmiting an unknown knowledge every thime We say something.

regards,

Inigo.

As usual thanks for sharing your thoughts, hope u feel better,
iñigo
ancien élève
ancien élève
 
Messages: 401
Inscription: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:57 pm
FORUM TAROT CAMOIN

Re: Hieroglyphic Language & the Tarot

Messagepar Paul » Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:59 pm

iñigo a écrit:Now I feel you are looking for The Source of the Nile.


And, I hope this is not a fruitless pursuit. I have always been up for the impossible !

iñigo a écrit:Controling the sound, the main channel of the comunication, and reflecting the sound trhu the same symbols always, the power ensured its capacity of control. Everything must has said in the same way, to express the same idea. For example, the english is base on hard rules of producing sound, intonation, to be understood, that means the word written the letters, are empty until the moment in which they are expressed.


Yes, this is my criticism of modern Tarots, that we supposedly will learn a lexicon of meanings, typically as per the Golden Dawn in relation to the Rider-Waite or Crowley decks, and this becomes the hard rules of meaning. Even as a teenager, I sensed something far more immediate in the Tarot de Marseille, which could not be learned in books.

iñigo a écrit:Yes, that means the meaning is not something static, but dynamic. This dynamism is based on rules of interaction. Interaction is linked to how is the perception of reality in each moment, and how the people organizes their reality in a given moment. The tarot is a narrative knowledge of a visual metaphor sequence.


This is what makes the optical analogies so potent. But, I like the Camoin Method because it has rules, which circumscribe us, and keep us from seeing Jesus Face in a Tortilla, so to speak. :wink:

iñigo a écrit:Nowadays You could find some of this aspects in the generative grammar of Noam Chomsky in the tarot, for example. The generative grammar or transformational grammar consists, basically, in genetic rules to produce the language and in a deep structure and superficial structure. Deep structure is linked to meaning


Yes, and I find this challenge every time I try to translate English into French, how to convey the nuances of meaning? In the Tarot, one card here or there, well, it changes the nuances. This meaning, I have found, is really to be found in the collaboration of the querent and reader.

iñigo a écrit:As usual thanks for sharing your thoughts, hope u feel better,


A good night's sleep...

P.
Image
Avatar de l’utilisateur
Paul
 
Messages: 262
Inscription: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:12 pm
Localisation: États-Unis d'Amérique
FORUM TAROT CAMOIN

Re: Hieroglyphic Language & the Tarot

Messagepar Kim » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:17 pm

Wooow ! I love that post and agree with the fact that a apparently childish system can, in fact, hide complex meanings.
It is unfortunately too difficult for me to really express, in details, in English, what I could in French but I would like to add that Isha Schwaller (wife of René) discovered that hieroglyphs could mean really different senses depending of several parameters like context, place of the image, who is supposed to read the text and so on as poetry could do too I guess ? But at that time scientifics laughed very loud at her theory.

I am happy to discover deep links between Tarots and Egypt. It took me several years not to refused that theory

Enjoy Spring
Kim
Kim
ancien élève
ancien élève
 
Messages: 985
Inscription: Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:31 pm
FORUM TAROT CAMOIN

Re: Hieroglyphic Language & the Tarot

Messagepar skip » Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:24 am

Smiling and Frowning at some topics in this post.

First, the frown:

I'm going out for mexican food tomorrow, and this thread has robbed me of one level of enjoyment. I can no longer look forward to finding Jesus's face in my tortilla. :( :wink:

Now for the smiles:

What a great description of the differences between abstract and hieroglyphic writing systems. Living in the Orient, I am constantly exposed not only to the ideographic/pictographic Chinese writing system used also in Japan and Korea, but also the flexibility and poetry of thought that seems to come easily to many thinkers in these languages. We must not forget this other hieroglyphic system, which is extremely complex and sophisticated, but can be incredibly lucid in simplicity as well. So we must shed our Western linear biases that a pictographic system is necessarily crude or rudimentary.

Kim, your comment about Isha Schwaller de Lubicz was fascinating, and so apt for understanding the Tarot.

Paul, I appreciated your point about this being the downfall of the modern Tarots, their inflexible and limited lexicon of meanings as well as the limitations of interaction between symbols in the Celtic and other spreads. Yet rules do exist.

Being a fan of some kinds of jazz music but not so much the extreme experimental explorations of recent jazz musicians, I have a fondness for this as a metaphor as well. The beauty and continuity comes as much from the familiarity of structure and other "rules", within which there is much freedom to express a subtle, nuanced vocabulary.

Inigo, what you said about "the modern dream tryed to control uncertainty and ambiguity" makes perfect sense to me, and also describes for me a big part of the split between Orient and Occident. I sense that here in the Orient there was never an attempt to control uncertainty and ambiguity. Well, except perhaps for the Cultural Revolution, but that is clearly not a success story. :?

best,

Skip
Avatar de l’utilisateur
skip
ancien élève
ancien élève
 
Messages: 50
Inscription: Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:05 pm
Localisation: Tokyo/Lisbon/Paris
FORUM TAROT CAMOIN


Retourner vers Tarot de Marseille

Qui est en ligne

Utilisateurs parcourant ce forum: Aucun utilisateur enregistré et 6 invités